Who’s insane?

At the NRA convention last week one news organization managed to take a few Ted Nugent quotes out of context and make him sound a bit on the extreme side:

HOUSTON (AP) – With an assault weapon in each hand, rocker and gun rights advocate Ted Nugent urged National Rifle Association members to be “hardcore, radical extremists demanding the right to self defense.”

Speaking at the NRA’s annual convention Saturday, Nugent said each NRA member should try to enroll 10 new members over the next year and associate only with other members.

“Let’s next year sit here and say, ‘Holy smokes, the NRA has 40 million members now,'” he said. “No one is allowed at our barbecues unless they are an NRA member. Do that in your life.”

Nugent sang and played a guitar painted with red and white stripes for the crowd at Houston’s downtown convention center.

He drew the most cheers when he told gun owners they should never give up their right to bear arms and should use their guns to protect themselves if needed.

“Remember the Alamo! Shoot ’em!” he screamed to applause. “To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want burglars dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead. No court case. No parole. No early release. I want ’em dead. Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot ’em.”

Of course almost every gun rights activist knows the NRA is the gun owners organization most likely to hand over our rights on a silver platter to victim disarmament crowd and cannot considered radical.  And even though I disagree with the philosophy of only associating with NRA members the world would be a safer and better place if the anti-freedom biogots of the world like Henry Boitel were in the mental wards rather than the Ted Nugents as Henry suggests would be appropriate.

10 thoughts on “Who’s insane?

  1. Joe,

    I assume it is you who posted the prior note. You must do something about that tension. It does not mix will with firearms.

    This kind of whining does not prove anything. You concede that Nogent’s comments sound extreme – an understatement, but I will take the concession anyway.

    Oddly, you do not correct the record. Instead, without any demonstrated basis, you accuse some news organization of painting an innacurate picture of what he said. As the lady said, Joe, “where’s the beef?”

    If you really believe I am an “anti-freedom bigot”, there is not much I can do about it except to say it is sad that opposition to the proliferation of undocumented guns is enough to arouse such name-calling. As far as Nogent is concerned, I suspect that most freedom loving people in the US and around the world would find his nonsense to be compatable with an environment of freedom, liberty and security. There is certain kinds of talk that is either phony rabble rousing or a sign of a severely undeveloped adolescent mentality. I suppose if you live in a very narrow world of shootemup, boom boom, the bad guys are all around us, then it becomes difficult to distinguish reality from fantasy.

    Be assured, however, that I have not given up on you. I don’t think that, at base, you are anti-freedom. You just have to shake some of that fear.

    Best wishes and be not afraid,

    Henry

  2. Here is a more complete version:

    http://www.mlive.com/news/muchronicle/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1113837335110850.xml

    But it doesn’t matter. You refuse to address the issues everyone bring up to you. You repeatedly mention how many homicides there are–apparently without any idea that some of those homicides could be justified or even praiseworthy. You ignore the millions of self-defense acts in this country each year when no shots are fired.

    You claim you are an advocate for freedom yet want everyone to have an Federally mandated ID card and our every action subject to tracking in a database. You say you would take up arms if they government became tyrannical yet you want those arms registered and hence they would be confiscated as soon as the government begins to turn sour.

    You project your fear of guns and gun owners onto the people that merely take the reasonable precaution of being responsible for their own safety and those around them–no different than fastening their seat belts, installing a fire suppression sprinkler system or burglar alarm in their home or office.

    The gun-control crowd has run out of intellectual ammunition and the population at large has realized it. They are loosing nearly every political battle. Nearly all states now recognize the right of their citizens to carry arms for self defense yet none have seen an increase in the crime rate attributed to those same people. The endgame is clear. You, and your fear mongering, gun fearing friends, can barely travel anywhere in this country without being in the company of people legally carrying firearms on a regular basis. On the streets, in the supermarkets, in the movie theaters, and in the restaurants. And still you claim more regulation would be a good thing.

    Henry, you are a bigot. An elitist, condescending, arrogant bigot. You are just like the people that wanted blacks to have separate drinking fountains, to not be able to eat at the same restaurants, to not be allowed to marry a white person, and to not be in the same schools. You have an irrational fear of guns and gun owners and want the government to restrict them so you don’t have to confront your own intellectual failings. I have zero time for dealing with your type. I have the media to entertain and more people to encourage to acquire the equipment and skills to hit small targets nearly a half mile away without any record of their skills or equipment in any government database. That how free speech remains free. That is how the right to a trial by jury will remain a right. That is how unreasonable searches are resisted. That is why would-be tyrants will not reach full maturity in this country. That is how freedom is guaranteed and I am contributing my part to those guarantees of freedom. Your bigoted blatherings are not worthy of my time.

  3. Joe and Henry,

    Forgive me for weighing in again, even if slightly.

    Henry, you obviously didn’t grow up in the 70’s listening to “Cat Scratch Fever.” It’s “Nugent” not “Nogent.” You also, lately, seem to confuse the idea of a free state with that of your narrowly viewed version of a liberal state. Ther is a distinct difference.

    I also have to agree that your accusation of “fear” on the gunowner’s part is probably projection. Through the portion of the argument that I’ve paid attention to, you’ve accused me, Joe, Jed, Rolf, and one other guy of either being scared of going outside or not getting enough attention from our mothers. It seems to me that, philosophy aside, the idea of a society where guns are actually accepted, scares the crap out of you.

    I will be traveling across state lines in the next couple of weeks, and it shocked me to find that I cannot carry a concealed pocket knife that is longer than 3 inches. Much as I hate these laws, I will not carry concealed for the time I am away. The rule of law is…well, it’s the rule of law that I consider necessary for a Platonic society to exist.

    Needless to say, if I can’t carry a knife with a 3″ blade concealed, I’m going to carry a knife with an 8″ unconcealed.

    This is a bit off topic, but it makes a point. You would be more comfortable going into a White Hen with a guy like me, not knowing what he is carrying. At the same time, you are the kind of guy that would leave that White Hen if I was carrying a big old knife on the exterior of my wasteband.

    Seeing people with exposed knives is not a surprise or a reason to call the cops in New Mexico (or Idaho, I suspect?) Where you live, that may warrant a news helicopter.

    I suppose I’m going back to my previous point that you seem to be incapable of understanding any culture outside of the one that has shaped you.

    It’s Tuesday night. Be not afraid.

    Regards,

    Benjamin

  4. An exposed knife is fine in Idaho. In many circumstances an exposed handgun is fine too. It’s legal in nearly all circumstances but probably would get you some unwanted attention in some cases.

  5. Joe,

    You are clearly suffering an attack of the nasties. It is wrong of you to make up things about my attitudes. I know that when you lose your temper there is a tendancy for all kinds of stuff to be blurted in the heat of panic, and I forgive you for it. But you should try to control the tendancy to fly off the handle.

    It goes without saying that is particuarly true when you are “carrying” or is the word “packing”?

    Suffice it to say, you know nothing of my background in civil liberties or in civil rights, and it would be remote from this discussion for me to go into it. I suspect however that my positive history in those areas is a lot bigger than yours.

    Since you delve into those areas, however, it is worth noting that the “spirtual descendents” of the racists and the anti-civil libertarians are far more likely to be gun obsessed than those who have championed the fight against racism and oppression. There is simply no contest there.

    You also raise the issue of ID systems. I know you are familar with my writings on the subject. I strongly suggest that you review your position concerning whether I am in favor of tracking. If upon review, you adhere to the opinion you have expressed in this posting, then I have to assume you are one of those rare persons who can write but cannot read.

    To bring this back to the where the discussion is supposed to be – I quoted Nogent [Ok, I know that it is Nugent. I think Nogent is a more approprately descriptive name]. You said the quote was a distortion. You now provide a reference that reinforces my point, and no reference to show that anything was distorted. Is that your idea of “proof”?

    Anyway, cool down, and get yourself sufficiently composed so that, in your role as the Big Boomer, you will successfully finish preparations for a safe Boomershoot 2005.

    Best wishes,

    Henry

    Benjamin,

    I never said anything about anyone’s mother.

    I don’t know what a White Hen is. Is it some kind of place attached to a backwoods still?

    I am trying to understand your culture, I do not see much effort in your trying to understand mine. Tell me Ben, without a lot of oratorical posturing with generalizations concerning freedom and liberty, what is your culture? Is it a culture deeply rooted in violence and punishment and fear? Do you guys really feel that most of us on the coasts are “unamerican” or do you recognize that gun control efforts have some basis in reason – even if you do not agree with the remedy?

    Best wishes and be not afraid,

    Henry

  6. Henry, add ignorance to your list of attributes. Gun control in this country has extremely racist roots. See http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html for example.

    I didn’t say you advocated tracking all activities I said we would subject to tracking of our activities. I’m aware of what you advocate: http://www.joehuffman.org/Freedom/UBIDDefeated.htm. You advocate a central database (item 5 on the previous web page). The Federal government was, and may still be, violating U.S. law in regards to the Brady Act records keeping and using those records for purposes for other than which the legislation authorized. What law or regulation do you propose to halt that practice? It’s already illegal but they do it anyway and no one goes to jail for it or stops it. How would a UBID database be any different? You also say, “if there is a UBID, it will be almost impossible for an illegal or a fugitive to function without encountering a situation that requires presentation of UBID”. If you believe the ability to track peoples activities won’t be exploited once the ability is there you are delusional as well. If it won’t be possible to function without your “papers” then you will have no means of functioning should the government “go sour” and require people to take up arms. At best, your concept of freedom must be some sort of Orwellian double speak.

    My meeting this morning with Department of Homeland Security (DHS) went well. Now it’s time to prepare for my meeting with representatives from NSA, CIA, FBI, and others (they actually seem to be talking to each other and cooperating!) this afternoon. Henry in so many ways, you are irrelevant to the things I have to do and am doing to make this country free and safe. Come back when you have a grip on reality. Read More Guns Less Crime by John Lott. Read Clayton Cramer’s history on the racist roots of gun control. Read what Lawrence Tribe has to say about the 2nd Amendment and the individual. Read Gary Kleck books on guns and violence (see for example: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Kleck/point-blank-summary.html).

    Oh, I have to run…I just got some email. The DHS people want to talk to me some more:

    “Your comments were right on target; they would like to talk to you in more depth. Can you join us at 11:00?”

  7. Joe,

    It is unfortunate that you cannot live with your own words.

    Higher up on this page, you said about me: “You claim you are an advocate for freedom yet want everyone to have an Federally mandated ID card and our every action subject to tracking in a database.”

    Now you say: “I didn’t say you advocated tracking all activities I said we would subject to tracking of our activities.”

    Joe, be fair and consistent. Your attack was a cheap shot aimed at shifting the focus by wrongfully accusing me of wanting surveillance. You knew better since we have corresponded for some time in other venues. Other people who read your words here don’t have that information.

    Joe, in the period immediately after 9/11/01, I predicted where the federal and stand governments would be going with regard to identity management. I warned, for all of my paranoidal reasons, that unless we set the ground rules in advance, databases and identity information would proliferate out of control with personal data being swallowed beyond remedy. People like you said that no identity management program was necessary and it would be wrong – for all of your paranoidal reasons.

    Well, it is clear that I was right. Enormous databases have been constructed, a lot of personal information has been gathered, the data is under the control or access of numerous government and non-government agencies — and there is very little regulation of how or when it can be used or exchanged.

    I don’t know why all those government agencies are interviewing you. If it is because of something you know – then I am not sure it is wise to blair that over this public area. If it is because of something you are doing, … well I won’t go there since I have not been retained. If they are boomer types then we are all in trouble.

    Best wishes and be not afraid,

    Henry

  8. Government agencies are not “interviewing me”. I’m a scientist. They came to the lab to hear how I could help them to do their jobs. I am creating and have created technology that is useful to them. I ask them questions about the problems they need solved and they ask questions about the technology I have created and could be adapted to their needs.

  9. You two are something else.

    In regards to your ID card thing, I am not as knowledgable as either of you are. The idea scares me, but I lack background on the technicalities.

    Insofar as Joes ability, solely as a programmer, I think he has written the best ballistic program money can buy, AND HE DOESN’T CHARGE A CENT for it.

    Like Henry, I am not sure of all of the nuances that are involved in Joe’s job, but whatever the hell he does, he’s goddamn good at it.

    White Hen is a convenience store that used to be common throughout the Midwest. It’s probably easier to use 7-11 as an example.

    While the reference to “backwood stills” is humorous, it lends nothing. I lived in Chicagoland up until I was twelve. There were no stills. There were a lot of White Hens.

    As far as culture, I find the one I am in to be an Emersonian philosophy of Self-Reliance. I do not like depending on government for anything except nation defense, which I think they are doing a piss-poor job on, given that this is their primary constitutional responsibilty.

    More and more, I find coastal populations unreasonable. They have no understanding of the basic needs of the human race. They reproduct at a lower level than the flyover country, they suffer worse murder and crime stats than those of us between the breasts, and the only solution they seem to recognize is regulation. Free markets, individual liberty, and the basic nature of mankind is not recognizable.

    As to the intent of gun regulation, I will give you that any attempt to lessen violent death is a good thing. As to regulation of guns, I think it’s a waste of time and the movement has outlived it’s necessity, much like the Ozone Layer wackos of the 80’s. I’m not accusing you or intentionally doing the wrong thing; I think you are probably making things worse by the reasoning you employ.

    As Joe stated, read Lott’s “More Guns, Less Crime”. He is doubtful as a professor, but much of what he states in this book is not only reasonable and statistically supported, it’s just common sense.

    It’s Wednesday night. Be not Afraid.

    Benjamin

  10. Benjamin,

    I hope Joe is a great programmer.

    Don’t worry about your White Hen reference having laid an egg. It happens.

    I am happy to hear you are against violent death. and are in favor of “any attempt to lessen” it. It did not take long for us to realize that we are on the same side, when it comes to fundamentals. Now all we have is a difference of opinion as to whether gun control can lessen violent death. Since we have never really had gun control, perhaps we should try it. There has been a lot of death in its absence.

    Best wishes and be not afraid,

    Henry

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