New shooter report

As I said yesterday I had arranged to take a new shooter to the range this evening.

She was a little nervous and at first you could even see her hands shake when she loaded the magazine of the Ruger Mark II. When she did some dry fire exercises I could see the gun shake as well. It wasn’t all nervousness though. She has very slender arms and the longer she held the gun out at arms length the more it shook and the more she bent her elbows.

Still, when she fired her first shots at about 10 feet away they were all “in the black”:

After several ordinary targets I put up a slightly used USPSA target and said, “This is a bad guy.” Here is the A-zone. Keep all your shots in the A-zone while shooting as fast as you can.

She had some problems. Many of the shots were going way low. I moved the target in very close about two feet from the muzzle and told her to point and shoot as fast as she could–the bad guy was very close. She shot fast and all the bullets were A-zone hits.

She wanted the target further away so gave her another slightly used USPSA target and she moved it to about 15 feet away and opened fire:

This time nearly all the shots were solid A-zone hits and she had a big smile on her face (Update: she didn’t like any of the pictures of her face so that photo has been removed).

I showed her my Gun Blog 45, hollow point bullets, FMJ bullets, and emptied a couple magazines. One at slow speed with maximum accuracy and one as fast as I could shoot and keep them on target. She declined to shoot the .45.

I showed her a S&W .22 revolver and let her shoot that. She much preferred the semi-auto pistol.

We had a long talk about self-defense and “who needs a gun”. She explained that in India it is very difficult to get a gun and very few people have them. Here many people have them and people use them to hurt other people. Why is it that people can get a gun so easily here?

I told her it was a choice everyone needs to make for themselves. She lives across the street from work and goes to work and gets off during daylight hours. It is in a nice part of town. She has no abusive ex-boyfriends. Other people may go to work or get off work very late at night in a very bad part of town. Everyone needs to make their own decisions. I told her of one of my first students who was a very petite middle-aged woman who told me she was a judge and some of her “customers” were very unhappy with her decisions. She had seen some of these people watch her as she left the courthouse. She had never considered owning a gun before let alone carry one when she went to/from work or when she went to the store. She sometimes traveled on her job and would spend the night alone in a motel many miles from home. She and her husband decided she needed to have a concealed carry permit, a gun, and training. She bought a gun and I taught her to use it defensively. The sheriff issued her a permit and she now carries the gun. I think she made the right decision. I told her of the person searching for “what means of self defence will you use as a woman when you are been raped by a man” who found my blog. And I told her of John Fogh’s advice for such a situation.

I told her of my Just One Question and what the numbers were on criminal use, defensive use, and suicide. I told her how a gun made it possible for a weak 85 year-old woman to defend herself against a large young man.

She said she had a wonderful time and I dropped her off at her apartment–she took all the targets with her.

19 thoughts on “New shooter report

  1. Regarding rape: The most important thing a woman can do is survive alive. She does not want to become a dead victim. She wants to get out of the experience alive. Most rapists don’t kill their victims (thankfully) but a few do. On top of this, most rapists are not strangers but are people the victims know.

    I would think long and hard before recommending a gun to every woman.

  2. Honestly, UBU52, it would seem to me that the most important thing a woman can do regarding rape is not be raped. And you know what prevents a rape? Fighting back. And you know what prevents a rape really, really well? Fighting back with a weapon:

    Women who used knives or guns in self-defence were raped less than 1% of the time. Defensive use of edged or projectile weapons reduced the rate of injury to statistical insignificance.

    “…statistical insignificance…” – that phrase came from three doctors, in their paper, “A New Way to Resist Rape“.

    From your endless trolling over at Robb’s place, we all already know your opinions concerning firearms… Unfortunately, regardless of how irrational those opinions may or may not be, the reality is that the use of firearms defensively in rapes reduces the probability of that rape occuring to nearly nothing, and given that information, it becomes significantly easier to “think long and hard” before recommending something that works.

    Regardless, congratulations, Joe, for introducing a new person to the shooting sport, and to the concept of using firearms for your own personal defense… It definitely sounds/looks like she had a good time, and you gave her a bit to think about as well.

  3. The most common rape scenario is the date rape. You are out on a date and you start getting close. Then you say “No” but he doesn’t stop. I had this happen to me once and I remember thinking that my jacket (which I really liked) would get ripped if I didn’t just lay there and let it happen.

    I never reported this as a rape though a lot of women would. I guess he thought it was part of the courting thing because he continued to call me to ask me out on dates. I felt like I was raped because I said NO.

    The type of scenario that most people think of as “rapist” is the anonymous man that gets into your house and rapes you.

    This happened to my roommate a long time ago. This is actually a very long story but I will try to keep it short.

    She was asleep and the rapist woke her up. He had unplugged her bedside lamp and was threatening her with the lamp cord and a knife. It’s actually a good thing that she didn’t have a loaded gun under her pillow or next to her bed. He would have found those. He was in the house for quite a long time before he woke her up.

    The other scenario is a crazy person who rapes a women in public. In that situation, a gun might help the women. But I think those are probably the rarest types of rape of all.

    I’m calling bullShite on Linoge’s rape defense. The majority of rapes are date rapes. Does Linoge have data that conflicts with that?

  4. Just as a side note, Linoge thinks sashimi is sushi. Check out his blog.

    Seriously, anyone who confuses the two needs more education. I guess Home Schooling doesn’t really teach a person everything.

  5. I don’t have any first hand data nor have I recently read any studies on rape. But I do know that a cousin of mine has been raped three times.

    The first time was when she was 13 years old by her older brother. I agree that arming 13 year olds to defend themselves against their siblings isn’t a good idea (although had she shot and killed him she would have saved a lot of other people a great deal of pain–he ultimately spent several years in prison for child molesting).

    The other two times were much more like the “being dragged into a dark alley” scenario and having a gun might have saved her from the trauma.

    I think the individual needs to make their own choices. Your body, your choice.

  6. I would agree: your body, your choice.

    BUT… I would be very wary of recommending a gun to a woman who sleeps very soundly. If a woman says that she never wakes up unless a 6.0 earthquake hits, she’s not a good candidate for keeping a gun near her bed. You need to remember that that gun can be used against her too.

    I have first hand data on more than one rape so ask away. Rape has been an issue for me for a lot of years and it’s part of the reason that I don’t agree with a lot of pro-gun people.

    Women need to learn how to survive a rape. That’s the most important thing.

  7. “Women need to learn how to survive a rape. That’s the most important thing. ”

    Bullshit, Women need to learn how avoid getting raped. That means more situational awareness, avoiding risk, carying means of personal defense, and not allowing un-vetted men access to their bodies.

    Will that reduce rape by 100% Hell no. And in no way does this shift the culpability of rape away from the rapist.

    Finally we need to work hard to put the creeps who do rape and attempt rape away for a long-ass time, and if you ask me, “Put away” should read “in the ground”.

  8. You can call “bullShite” all you want, ubu52, it really does not bother me. Why not? Well, let me see… I presented a paper written by three different doctors, published in the Journal of Indian Academy of Forensic Medicine, and researched through eight different sources ranging from the American Journal of Public Health to the Canadian Journal of Behavior Science.

    You, on the other hand, present an anecdote, and uncited personal opinions. Hm.

    Of particular coincidence, however, your anecdote in question was almost exactly mirrored in the “Case Report” section of the paper I linked to… and, coincidentally, the woman in the paper escaped un-raped (though still sexually assaulted) due to the fact that she fought back. Anecdote… and counter-anecdote. Neither I nor the paper-writers are, in any way, attempting to put forward an absolute statement (unlike you) regarding whether or not to fight back in a specific rape situation, but the statistics clearly indicate that fighting back reduces the chances of a rape being successfully completed, and fighting back with a firearm or edged weapon reduces those chances to “statistical insignificance”. This is not to say that fighting back stops all rapes, nor is it to say that fighting back is appropriate for all rapes, but it does say that, if a person decides to fight back, the chances of a rape being completed decrease significantly, on average – exceptions, of course, always exist. Personally, I would just as soon educate women on the specifics concerning the different methods of dealing with sexual assault, rather than have them follow your lead and shove their heads in the sand.

    Speaking of, I find it completely amazing that you would be so eager to minimize, ignore, and denigrate a study that points out historically demonstrable and statistically supported methods for women to avoid being raped… I simply do not comprehend why someone would want to aid and abet rapists by encouraging women to “give them what they want”, especially when doing so guarantees the rape will take place. Why are you so eager to convince women to be victims? If a woman decides to be a victim, that is a matter for her to deal with… but encouraging people to “give him what he wants” in all situations? I find it very telling that “the most important thing” to you is “surviving” rape, and not stopping rape or preventing rape… I guess deciding to be a victim before the fact is something I will just never understand. (This is not to say that post-rape counselling is not important, but “most important”? Most important is ensuring women would never have to go through that conselling to begin with.)

    In other news, the specific vocabulary I use to describe the food I eat has absolutely no relevance upon this particular discussion, but I would like to state, for the record, that I have never actually consumed sashimi, which is defined as “raw fish served sliced, but as-is. That means no rice bed or roll, but it is often served alongside daikon and/or shiso.” All of the raw fish I have ever eaten have invariably come strapped to, wrapped inside, or placed atop rice rolls/beds (at least when I order it… sometimes it falls apart on me). Personally, I do tend towards maki-zushi and uramaki, but I certainly will not turn down a piece of nigiri-zushi (which is, no doubt, what you are erroneously mistaking as “sashimi” in my photograph). Also, I am curious – what public pre-high-school schools teach the differences between nigiri-zushi, maki-zushi, sashimi, and all of the other forms of raw fish served in approximately-Japanese styles?

  9. “not allowing un-vetted men access to their bodies”

    Wrong. Vetted men are part of the problem. Ever heard that “No means No”? Remember Lorena and John Bobbitt? Just because someone is vetted doesn’t mean they can’t commit rape. Your husband/boyfriend can rape you.

    The police caught the guy that raped my roommate and we went to court. It was not his first rape. He was a tall, handsome man with two little kids and a beautiful wife. The jury didn’t convict him even with a lot of physical evidence. He claimed he knew us even though neither of us had even seen him before the trial. (He wore something on his head when he raped my roommate.)

    If blogs had an Ignore button, I’d be putting Linoge on it. Linoge, the pre-high schools in Little Tokyo?

  10. If blogs had an Ignore button, I’d be putting Linoge on it.

    That is, perhaps, the highest compliment you ever could have paid me, UBU52. I am sincerely touched, and I thank you for it.

    Likewise, I thank you for answering the last question I posed. Of course, I do note that you chose not to apologize for your blatant, erroneous assumption, nor did you chose to apologize for your equally-blatant bigotry, nor do you have any further non-anecdotal data to bring to the table, nor do you have any answers to any of the other questions I posed to you or the explanations I provided. To put it simply, why is it better to prepare for the aftermath of a rape, than prepare for stopping the rape before it ever happens? Undoubtedly, given you are so firm in your position, you have countless numbers of studies, papers, and published journal entries to support your yet-unsubstantiated opinion, so please, bring them forward (it would go without saying with anyone else, but “the plural of anecdotes is not ‘data'”). Likewise, why should a woman who is willing and able to defend herself not be permitted and/or encouraged to equip herself with tools to do so?

    To be a truly effective troll, UBU52, you have to be sure to keep your targets engaged and interested in the conversation – you are failing, quite miserably… which, granted, may be something you are used to by now.

  11. Linoge, honey… I only read part of the beginning of your post — up to the point where you accused me of fabricating my anecdote.

    You know, I know I’m old enough to be your mother. I am not going to play games with you. I never said I hated guns because I don’t. I grew up around them. I was also a champion dart player years ago so I totally appreciate sports that have a target. Target shooting is a great thing. So is skeet shooting and all other forms of competition shooting. Hunting is okay in my book too.

    I am opposed to concealed carry in metropolitan areas, particularly in MY metropolitan area. Is that hard to understand?

    Anyway, you seem to behave like a child when you respond to my posts. I don’t care how smart you are. I do care that you don’t appear to have any sort of heart beating inside your body. You are so busy screaming “bigot” and “hoplophobe” that you miss anything that might be to your advantage. I’m actually not opposed to guns but I am opposed to people like you (who can’t seem to control your emotions) having them. Scream on kid, cuz I’m telling you to talk to the hand.

    I am not a troll. I’m simply an older woman with a different viewpoint. I’m over 50 and I’ve been single since forever and I live in a city where I have never been victimized — so beat that.

    Also, it would be great if we could tell every woman to arm themselves and blow away rapists — but a lot of rapists are spouses and boyfriends who just don’t believe that “No means no.” A lot of women have actually gone to prison for blowing away those types of men. It seems like there is a double standard involved in this somewhere.

    On the other hand, sure, you can blow away the stranger rapist who climbs in your window or drags you off the street, but those are the rarest types of rapes. As I mentioned earlier, if you sleep really soundly, a gun is not a good self defense item. Pepper spray might be better.

    As a side note to all this discussion, Joe might have found someone who would appreciate target shooting as a sport. It is a fun sport. She just needs to find a gun that she feels comfortable with. Do they have shooting leagues or anything like that in Seattle?

    Linoge, it’s great that you feel you can score extra points by attacking old ladies — but I think it’s stupid. Do you attack older men with such venom?

  12. up to the point where you accused me of fabricating my anecdote.

    I did no such thing, and I would kindly thank you for not intentionally misrepresenting my words.

    Is that hard to understand?

    Not at all. But what is “hard to understand” is why? Why should the rights of those who choose/have to live in metropolitan areas be abridged? Why should your fear of inanimate objects reduce other people to defenselessness? Why should other people give up their right to self-perpetuation simply because you do not want them to have it? Should the right to free expression likewise be abrogated in metropolitan areas simply because? Your inability to verbalize a logical, rational, reality-supported explanation for this position is what makes you a hoplophobe, and your continued insistance on that position regardless of any facts or explanations to the contrary is what makes you a bigot (of course, your blind bigotry against homeschooling only adds to the evidence against you – I note you still have not apologized for that or your flagrant error). I am merely using appropriate words to describe your stances, and you are living down to those words at every available opportunity… how interesting.

    I don’t care how smart you are. I do care that you don’t appear to have any sort of heart beating inside your body.

    And now the truth finally dawns… we have yet another “woman with the earrings“, and a nearly textbook example, at that.

    Of course, I do find it more than a little ironic that someone who would encourage women to be victims would also accuse another individual of not having a heart… especially when that other person supports any and all methods available to stop anyone from becoming a victim. How does that work, exactly?

    A lot of women have actually gone to prison for blowing away those types of men.

    And this is why I described a portion of your writing as “uncited opinion” – this would have been a perfect oppotunity for you to provide links to substantiate the previous statement, and yet you chose not to, probably hoping that no one would call you on it and everyone would accept it at face value. I am sorry, but today is not your day – please provide examples of the cases you alluded to in the previous sentence. Futhermore, who are you to decide whether or not a woman should have the choice between trying to defend herself (and maybe go to jail) and becoming a victim?

    As I mentioned earlier, if you sleep really soundly, a gun is not a good self defense item. Pepper spray might be better.

    Do you realize how logically inconsistent these two sentences are? A tool is a tool is a tool, and if someone does not have the will or ability to use one tool, how is another tool any better? Both could be “used against her” should the rapist find them, and it is not exaclty like rapists need firearms to kill their victims (should they choose to).

    Do you attack older men with such venom?

    I respond to all people who would strip law-abiding citizens of their rights in the same way. I respond to all people who would advocate victimhood over and to the exclusion of self-defense in the same way. I do not discriminate based on gender nor age.

    And yet through all of this emotion-over-reason, oh-woe-is-me, bleeding-heart-martyr act, you still have not managed to answer any of my questions (mostly due to your intentional and flagrant reading comprehension problems, but that is another matter for another thread)… and that is why you are a troll, ubu52 (strangely enough, proclaiming, “I am not a troll,” is not nearly as good a defense as you might think, especially since I read two of the weblogs you have been trolling at of late). So let me make this simple for you… my questions are:

    1. Why is it “more important” to focus on the aftermath of a rape than take steps, learn training, and aquire tools to defend yourself? Please provide citations to the papers, journals, studies, and other writings supporting your position.
    2. Why are you encouraging all women to be victims just because some of them are incapable of or unwilling to defend themselves? Please provide citations to the papers, journals, studies, and other writings supporting your position.
    3. Why are you so adamantly opposed to a method of dealing with rape that reduces the success rate of those rapes to statistically insignificant numbers? Why are you helping rapists? Again, please provide citations to the papers, journals, studies, and other writings supporting your position.

    Now, are those hard to understand?

  13. “Of women who reported being raped and/or physically assaulted since the age of 18, three quarters (76 percent) were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabitating partner, date or boyfriend. Source: “Prevalence Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey”, U.S. Department of Justice, November, 1998″ http://www.aardvarc.org/dv/statistics.shtml

    “In California alone there are 600 women in prison for killing their abusers in self-defense. Average prison terms are twice as long for killing husbands as for killing wives.” http://www.prisonactivist.org/articles/women-prison

    I don’t have time to answer all your questions. I’ve got stuff to do!

  14. Women deserve access to the tools of self defense. All of them, all the time. No person should decide for any other person whether or not they should keep a gun next to their bed (secured in a safe, or not). Their body, their choice.

    http://www.a-human-right.com/

  15. A long, vacation-packed (at least for me) weekend later, and I note that none of my questions were answered, and only one of my demands was even addressed (speaking of, given the lack of citations from your linked source, that hardly counts as hard data).

    Color me unsurprised – your silence speaks volumes, ubu52.

  16. Linoge,

    “only one of my demands was even addressed” — DEMANDS? Yeah, I thought they were demands too, and I don’t do DEMANDS. As I said above: “Scream on kid, cuz I’m telling you to talk to the hand.”

    Hey! Knock yourself out! I’m honored that you can post such a long bunch of BS for every little thing I post. It shows that you are really working while I am slacking off. Way to go!!! By the way, did anyone tell you: You are WINNING!!! WooHoo!!

    Anytime I get you to post a diatribe while I post very little, I win. You lose. I’m never going to answer your long BS posts because they are exactly that: BS.

    Take your “demands” and shove them where the sun will never see them — like somewhere under a rock.

  17. Your silence does, indeed, speak volumes, ubu52, and, equivalently enough, your words say nothing.

    It is, however, very interesting that you consider the concept of self-defense to be “BS”. It is very interesting that you consider the idea of allowing women to defend themselves from rapists to be “BS”. It is very interesting that you consider the undeniable reality of individual rights to be “BS”. It is very interesting that you consider preparing not to be a victim to be “BS”.

    Oh, and as for you supposedly not doing demands… yes, yes you do – after all, you answered this request: “please provide examples of the cases you alluded to in the previous sentence”. 🙂

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