It’s not something that I would want, but we’ve seen how, for at least the first couple days, we were left alone. There were no cops that would come around. So what are we to do? Just stand there and do nothing?
June 3, 2020
Armed Neighborhood Groups Form In The Absence Of Police Protection
[Via email from Rolf.
One of the biggest problems that I see with the situation is the reduced force continuum. They can’t make a citizens arrest when there are dozens or hundreds of rioters and looters. The options are:
- Presence. Be visible, observe and record the actions of the terrorists.
- Verbally warn the bad guys.
- Under certain circumstances use pepper spray.
- Warning shots.
- Shoot to stop.
When the terrorist are breaking windows and doors and looting can you legally shoot to stop them? If not, then the terrorists win. They will just walk through the force continuum available to you and it’s game over.
Email from Paul K. a few days ago:
My understanding is that, with rare exceptions, deadly force is unfortunately no longer permitted in defense of property.
It turns out that it depends upon the state. Here are a few links:
- DEADLY FORCE IN THE PROTECTION OF PROPERTY – A VERY RISKY BUSINESS
- Lethal Force: Can it Be Used In Defense Of Property?
Paul’s assertion does not appear to hold in Idaho and Washington.—Joe]
Many states consider arson to be an attack on persons, not property, Since there was definitely arson going on, deadly force would be an option, depending on the totality of the circumstances. And, of course, whether the local DA is a Soros bot.
For what it’s worth, NH law covers “justification” of deadly force in the case of arson in a section of the law describing “premises”. The rules relating to “persons” are in a different section.
Generally, arson against a structure that is typically used to contain people (home, office building, etc) and is known or can be assumed to be occupied, is considered to be attempted homicide. Lethal measures to stop the action are normally judged to be acceptable. A storage shed on the back 40 would not normally meet the requirements of this level of force.
I don’t know about Washington and Idaho, but in PA you can specifically use deadly force on rioters:
“The use of deadly force is not in any event justifiable under this subsection unless … the actor believes that the use of such force is necessary to suppress a riot or mutiny after the rioters or mutineers have been ordered to disperse and warned, in any particular manner that the law may require, that such force will be used if they do not obey.”
Isn’t the easiest way to deal with defense of property is to be in the property? Rioters coming to loot a building? Advance to the rear tactically into the building. Rioters still coming? Now you at least can make the claim they are threatening you in a place you have a right to be (i.e. your business). They’re armed, they’re mobbed up and there’s a lot more of them than you.
At least then you’d have a veneer of legitimacy in the use of force. Right now I am not seeing a lot of juries will be willing to convict if it is six of you with guns and two hundred of them.
Matt, that depends on whether the state imposes a duty to retreat. If it does, being in the building only means you have to vacate when looters break in.
The problem is one of optics and narrative, combine with the attitude of the general population. If the people are not totally fed up with the lawlessness and destruction, fearful for their own lives and property, then one or more of the rioters getting shot will be made into a martyr with a full-on media narrative and hagiography running 24×7 playing him to be the total victim. The more looters who are shot, the more likely one of them will have a profile that can be buffed up to a high shine for the camera.
Take a student I know, for example, who believes we should de-fund the police, raise the minimum wage, pay reparations for past slavery, and all the rest of the radical left taking points. He’s biracial, looks relatively clean / non-thug-like, an orphan, well off (going to a private school), has good grades (re-test or rework until he does well enough on that segment to move on), applied for the military, etc. The media would have a total field day with polishing his image as the victim of racism. He’s the ideal “useful idiot” for the professional agitators on the left to push to the front of the looting line to get killed. He’s easily emotionally manipulated, not very bright, idealistic, glib and cheerful enough when the cameras are rolling and he thinks people are watching, and prone to emotional outbursts (both positive and negative). He’s also lazy even by modern teenager standards, argumentative, disrespectful of many people and ideas, happily ignorant, wants a grade (and pay) without the because he’s a “victim” of society.
He is exactly the sort the left-wing disruptors want to bleed for the cameras. An utterly expendable, gullible, young fool, useful to them to die in order to advance the narrative of racism and division that they are stoking. And there are many more like him around here.
If, God forbid, you are ever in a “shoot masses zombie hoards of looters” situation, if at all possible observe long enough to identify leaders, provocateurs, agitators, and so-forth, to shoot first, not just the expendable cannon-fodder they convince to take the lead in the zerg-rush for the cameras.
Joe’s annual event provides excellent practice for the type of precision application of ballistics needed. However, the current name of the event seems inappropriate. Not that many “boomers” involved with breaking things, looting, and arson. A more age-appropriate moniker may be in order.
The problem is less one of connecting with the target than target selection. Taking out a few effective and well-connected seditious background agitators will do much more to fix the local situation than dropping a many more delusional and manipulated fools on the front lines who are ten steps closer. It’s an information problem, with an observational difficulty problem (why do you think people like Black Block agitators try to get everyone to dress the same? In part it is to make ID-ing the leaders much harder).
I really hope I’m never in any such situation – I tend to avoid down town and riots – but were such to come my way sorting out leader from cannon fodder would be difficult to do on the fly, but because of limited room meaning limited potential hostiles to choose from, it might be possible. If push comes to zerg-rush, you do what you have to do with the information you have at the time, though.
From these examples in WA, I would say that defending your property with deadly force is questionable. And it would be doubly so if the victim becomes a martyr.
Tried and found not guilty. Homeowner shoots and kills intruder.
Onalaska man gets five years for shooting a suspected burglar. http://www.lewiscountysirens.com/?p=7299
And these examples are from Lewis County – not exactly a liberal paradise.
Not exactly the same kind of case though, Chet.
You have one case where the homeowner finds an intruder in his house, tells him to freeze, intruder keeps advancing and gets blown away;
What appears to be a blatant ambush situation (which is kind of a big no-no, especially as the perp was fleeing).
In Ohio you cannot legally use deadly force to defend property.
And in most places I’ve lived, warning shots are never legal (Joe Biden notwithstanding). The theory of those that wrote the laws is that you should never shoot except to protect your life or the lives of others from death or serious injury. If your shots were not aimed at a specific threat, then you were not in fear of your life and the shots were unjustified.
There is also the issue of where the rounds impact. Ask the Ohio National Guard how firing over the heads of rioters can work out.
Start by looting your own store. Let black block burn it down. Collect the insurance money. Sale the place to anyone stupid enough to move back in. Go live your life.
None of the narrative ends until the mainstream news reporters on the ground start getting hurt.(maybe by black block) No one to report. And no one to investigate. (they defunded the police remember).
Insurance quite often doesn’t cover riots, civil disturbances, war, insurrection, etc. You’re SOL in most cases. IIRC, having a BG’s vehicle crashing into your car or home while being chased by the police is often enough reason for the insurance company to disallow coverage. They will tell you to go after the city. Good luck with that.
I don’t know anywhere where firing a warning shot is advisable or legal.
In KY the use of deadly force is legal for arson, not for any other property crimes.
You can use deadly force inside your home against intruders.
I do think a competent lawyer could make the case that rioters posed a immediate threat of severe bodily harm or even death.
In KY, deadly force is legal in a few more cases than just arson.
KRS 503.080 covers Protection of property.
The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable … when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used is:… Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or(c)Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in his possession.
The relevant paragraph in 503.055 states: A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a felony involving the use of force.
Oh, forgot, there’s always a caveat….
When the defendant is justified under KRS 503.050 to 503.110 in using force upon or toward the person of another, but he wantonly or recklessly injures or creates a risk of injury to innocent persons, the justification afforded by those sections is unavailable in a prosecution for an offense involving wantonness or recklessness toward innocent persons.
Of course a rioter/looter is an “innocent person”.
where the hell is blue thunder when you need it…
Per the letter of the law in my state, deadly force can be used to stop a “forcible felony”. Burglary and Arson both count.
That said, this is a blue city, blue state, leftist, anti-gun, politically motivated Attorney General, etc.
reality is, they’ll try to screw the defensive shooter, no matter what the law says, especially if they can play the race card.